In Defense of Robert Zins

Detractor Gwinn states :

“Let me "cut to the chase." I document at this page that Robert Zins, a member of a Southern Baptist church, is actively pursuing a campaign in which he declares that Evangelicals are not true Christians. My primary focus is to expose Mr. Zins' outrageous allegations about Evangelicals and to call him to account, to encourage his repentance and restoration in the Body of Christ. Evangelicalism is presently under attack from Robert Zins, and by the grace of God, I will defend my brothers and sisters in Christ in the face of this attack.”

To begin with , Mr. Gwinn has “cut to the chase” with a bold faced lie.  We invite anyone visiting our web site to see for themselves if we are actively pursuing a campaign in which we portray evangelicals as not true Christians.  Mr. Gwinn twists our defense of Sola  Fide [justification by faith alone] and Sola Scriptura [the Bible alone as the only inspired Word of God and sufficient for faith and practice] as an outrageous allegation about evangelicals.  He thinks a defense of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is an attack against evangelicals. 

We are not altogether certain how suitable the word “evangelical” has become in so far as defining a true Chrisitian in our day and age.  But suffice it to say at one point the word “evangelical” was almost synonmous for  Christian .  A Christian is one who has embraced the total sufficiency of the atonement of Jesus Christ to satisfy forever the wrath of God against his guilt and sins.  A Christian, by faith alone, trusts that the atonement of  Jesus was completely sufficient to enable God to forgive his/her sins.  God now takes to heaven all those who trust the promise of God that eternal life awaits those who are in Christ by faith alone.  Any rejection or abandonment of justification by faith alone, in the finished work of Christ alone, apart from the works of any law, is a renunciation of the gospel.  Those who forsake justification by faith alone and embrace any other kind of salvation including all auto soteric religions [self salvation through individual goodness] and sacerdotal schemes [religious priests acting as intermediaries between God and man] must be rejected as non-Christian.

Mr. Gwinn does not seek to defend his brothers and sisters against CWRC. He in effect wishes to defend his own right to embrace Roman Catholicism as an alternative form of Christianity while trying to maintain the integrity of the term “evangelical”.  He also wishes to defend all those who wish to remain Christian while at the same time endorsing the opposite gospel of the Roman Catholic religion.  This is the crux of his complaint against CWRC.

We have no personal issues with Mr. Gwinn.  We have only a deep regret that he has misled and confused many with his half truths and misrepresentations.  We seek to keep the conversation on the level of our deep and vast theological impasse though it be hard to simply ignore the factual distortions of Mr. Gwinn’s web site.

The gist of Gwinn, when all is said and done, needs to be explored and then the reader may read on through our discussion of Gwinn’s methods to discredit CWRC.  What we have isolated at the outset may be of use to you as well.  There may be many who are in a similar frame of mind, albeit less contentious than Mr. Gwinn.   Here then is the gist of Gwinn.

Mr.  Gwinn wants desperately to believe that one can be a Roman Catholic and a Christian all at once.  He finds some friends of this persuasion among many modern men who place themselves in the “evangelical” camp.  This is the sum and total of his angst against CWRC.  He simply cannot fathom our position that it is impossible to embrace the dogman, doctrine, practices, and truth claims of the RC religion and be a Christian all at once.  Gwinn believes with all of his heart and soul that Christians can believe both the doctrines and dogmas of Rome as well as Christianity all at once!

Mr. Gwinn thinks that our position, that all who are truly born from above cannot possibly stay in Rome or continue in the dogma, doctrine, practices, and truth claims of Roman Catholicsim, is anti-Christian.  He furthermore maintains that our insistence that anyone truly born from above must leave Roman Catholicism must be some sort of new gospel. In his haste to criticize he accuses us of a sort of salvation by departure.  To get saved one must leave the Roman Catholic religion. This of course is nonsense and does nothing more than show the depths that one will go to in defending an untenable position.  Our position is that when once saved a person cannot stay in Roman Catholicism any more than the apostle Paul could reaffirm 1st century Judaism after his conversion to Christ.

Mr. Gwinn thinks only on surface levels.  He cannot think through the real issues.  He is struck by the audacity of postulating that there cannot be one solitary Roman Catholic in existence who is truly a Christian.  This is his “oh my gosh ” torment.  How could anyone say or believe this?  What kind of ministry would endorse such a level of reckless foolishness?  Such is the angst of Mr. Gwinn.

Our response is even keeled and direct.  When once God removes the veil from the eyes of the Roman Catholic and gives him/her eyes to see and ears to hear and new heart of trust in the real grace of God there is no more Roman Catholicism left in the soul.  Hence, to be born again by the Spirit puts an end forever to Roman Catholicism.  One cannot believe in salvation through the Roman Catholic system of sacraments etc., and salvation by grace through faith alone at the same time. It is one or the other.  No one born from above could possibly stay at the altar of Israel as all attempts to import 1st century Judaism into the New Covenant community were dismissed by the Apostles. Likewise, no one born from above can believe that faith alone forgives all guilt and sin as well as attendance upon the Roman Catholic Mass.  The two cancel out each other.

Mr. Gwinn champions all those who endorse Rome as some kind of alternative Christian community and would approve those who would not condemn the false gospel of Rome.  We leave it to the reader to decide if anyone who is born from above by the Holy Spirit can so easily sanction a religion that denies the very heart of the gospel that was the instrument of their new birth in the first place.  CWRC

If you have shaken the hand of a Catholic, you have embarked on the road to apostasy. And if you don't repent of it quickly, you have crossed the line into apostasy.

This comment is of course full of hyperbole. We do not take the position that “shaking hands with a Roman Catholic” literally leads to apostasy. However, if a hand shake is indicative of an endorsement of RC theology and an acceptance of those who are involved in the RC religion then such a “hand shake” indeed needs to be repented of and those who endorse Roman Catholicism while claiming to be Christian have crossed the line into apostasy.

Though he doesn't seem to put this into writing, Rob Zins frequently states [including in front of our church], "There is no such thing as a Catholic Christian."

We stand by this statement entirely. One cannot be a Roman Catholic and a Christian all at once anymore than the Apostle Paul could practice Judaism and be a Christian at the same time. Something has to give. To believe the Roman Catholic Gospel and the Christian gospel all at once is a complete oxymoron. It is impossible. We realize that the word ‘Catholic’ means ‘universal’ and is a good term to describe the universal body of Christ. But we are dealing here with the Roman Catholic religion and not the ‘catholic’ or ‘universal’ body of Christ.

I would suggest that such a true believer as James White describes - who calls themselves a Catholic and is a member of the Catholic Church - such a person does not cease to be a Catholic but is rather a Catholic Christian. I affirm that such a person is a full-fledged member of the Body of Christ and is therefore my brother or sister in Christ.

Mr. Gwinn either does not know what the Roman Catholic religion teaches or believes; or he does not know what the Bible teaches us to believe with respect to the Gospel. We repeat that one cannot be a Roman Catholic and a Christian at the same time. It is impossible to believe two diametrically opposing points of view at the same time. It is nonsense to believe that two things that contradict each other are both true.

I would suggest that Antipas Ministries is similar to A Christian Witness to Roman Catholicism in that outrageous ideas are espoused and often left unchallenged.

There is nothing outrageous in believing that all true Christians are justified by faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone and that the Bible is our only source of authority. To challenge these twin pillars of Christian faith is to challenge the heart of the Gospel. Those who set aside these basic Christian tenets are themselves ‘outrageous’ and stand against the Gospel.

What then is the definition of "leaving the Catholic religion" as Rob Zins demands as a condition for salvation?

Anyone who has read our materials and graced our web site will soon see the fallacy of the above statement. There is no other condition for salvation than faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone. However, it is incongruent and a false gospel to suggest that one can come to Christ through the Gospel and remain in an anti-Christ system of theology. Leaving the Roman Catholic religion is the natural fruit of coming to Jesus. One does not become a Christian by leaving Rome. But, all Christians will leave Rome. They cannot stay in a false religion.

I concur with MacArthur, Sproul, Finzel, DeCourcy, and the vast majority of Evangelicals who believe that being Catholic does not disqualify a person from having a relationship with Christ and being a member of the true spiritual Body of Christ. For these believing Catholics, their allegiance is to Jesus Christ, not to a religion, a pope, Mary, or the sacraments.

Mr. Gwinn impales himself on the horns of his own dilemma. To be a Roman Catholic is to give allegiance to a pope, Mary and the sacraments among many other things. Simply read the Catholic Catechism and see for yourself. So, when one forsakes the Roman Catholic religion and gives allegiance to Jesus Christ through His Gospel then one is no longer a Roman Catholic. You cannot have it both ways. If you are a Christian [faith alone-Bible alone etc.] then you are no longer a Roman Catholic. Mr. Gwinn is speaking nonsense.

Let me paraphrase that for you..... Billy Graham has lost the Gospel, thus becoming an apostate, and we do not expect to see apostates in heaven.

CWRC has taken the position that no man is above the Gospel. Mr. Graham’s romance with Roman Catholicism is well known and documented my many authors. There is no excuse for Mr. Graham endorsing a non-Christian religion. We do not pretend to know the eternal disposition of Mr. Graham. But we know the Gospel and we stand absolutely opposed to the ponderings and cogitations of Mr. Billy Graham and his dreadful obfuscation and concealment of the Gospel in his toleration of Rome.

Rob, along with his wife Nancy, had a booth where Rob was selling his books and talking with people. Nancy was talking with people, too, and appeared to be part of Rob's ministry team. I engaged Rob in conversation off and on over a period of about 90 minutes.

While it is true that I ran into Mr. Gwinn at a bookstore in California, it is not true that my wife Nancy was with me. Perhaps indicative of Mr. Gwinn’s inattention to detail and propensity to not get the story right is the fact that Nancy was not with me on that trip and has never traveled with me to California. The woman, mistaken by Mr. Gwinn as my wife, was the wife of the couple who hosted me in Covina, California. This couple has been wonderful in supporting the ministry of CWRC.

She would need to experience and articulate a complete denunciation of the Catholic religion in order to be considered "saved," by the Rob Zins' definition.

This particular allegation is wildly off the mark. All Christians would find it relatively easy to denounce the tenets of the Roman Catholic religion. When one is born from above and begins to articulate the truth all false gospels are denounced sooner or later. We would be very concerned with those who wish to be called Christian while at the same time wanting to hang onto the mass or purgatory or indulgences or confession to a priest or a works based justification. No one has the right to pollute the Gospel by hanging onto ingredients from false religions for any reason.

Shortly after the bookstore incident, I contacted the administrative offices of the bookstore chain. I soon received a sincere and heart-felt apology from the Operations Manager. He was very disappointed with how I was treated and was sorry that Robert Zins had conducted himself in the way that he did.

We have no confirmation from the bookstore in Southern California that they were in the least disappointed by my conduct or remiss in their removal of Mr. Gwinn from the bookstore for his disruptiveness. We have received no notification either by e-mail, phone or mail that confirms Mr. Gwinn’s story. We are on good terms with this bookstore and to my knowledge; none of our books have ever been removed from their shelves.

In between the meeting at our church and the bookstore event with Robert Zins, I managed to speak on the phone with three evangelical pastors in Rob's (then) home town of Rutland, Vermont. This was very revealing. It turns out two of them feel a long-standing disappointment with Mr. Zins on account of his "isolationism." They said that Brother Rob "refuses to fellowship" with them.

For over 19 years we labored in the ministry in Rutland, Vermont. The net result was the establishment of a very fine Bible Church that is still bearing fruit to this day. We cannot be certain to whom Mr. Gwinn is referring when he claims to have talked with two pastors who felt a “long-standing disappointment” with Mr. Zins.” We certainly chose carefully those with whom we wished to have fellowship. This is nothing unusual. Our doctrinal distinctive often times prevented us from getting involved with other folks. Anyone standing for the sovereignty of God as well as the sufficiency of Scripture will find it hard to find fellowship in light of the ecumenical movement and the modern day down grade into humanism. So, we were and are very careful.

The third pastor was from a Baptist Church within the American Baptist denomination. This pastor stated about himself that he occasionally goes to Moody Bible Institute for conferences and that he and his church is conservative in theology, unlike most of his denomination. This pastor said that he only "knew of" Robert Zins but had not actually met him. He stated that he had received a letter (out of the blue) from Robert Zins in about 1997, stating that a particular man had been disfellowshipped from the Reformed Bible Church (see below), Mr. Zins' church. He found this letter to be odd, as if the community was being instructed to ostracize the man in case he tried to find another church.

As part of an Elder Board at Reformed Bible Church, we were following the New Testament guidelines in carrying out discipline in the Body of Christ. This entails a public notification to Bible believing churches in the area to be aware of anyone under our disciplinary action. We did this by way of courtesy. It is a solid biblical pattern.

One of these Rutland pastors said that in his many years of ministry in Rutland, Robert Zins had been and continued to be "the single most frustrating aspect" of his ministry, on account of Mr. Zins' separatist style. For purposes of this exposé, we will call this pastor's church, the "Christian XYZ Church."

We do not apologize for the angst brought about by our stand against the Roman Catholic religion. Many pastors, for reasons unknown, refuse to tell the simple truth about Roman Catholicism. We can only imagine that they may be frustrated with our stance for Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. These two rallying points of the great Protestant Reformation are being reversed by men who cannot see the point. We are still in the battle today. The modern evangelical pastor seems disinclined toward theology and doctrine and sees our ministry as “frustrating” to no end. We cannot help but hope that the Lord would bring conviction and courage to those who are His own.

In 1999, I took the liberty of contacting the "Country Bible Church" in Kaufman, Texas. I asked them about this claim by Robert Zins. They wrote me a letter informing me that they remember him but that his claim to have "helped to plant" their church is a mischaracterization. They named for me several people who are their founders, and Mr. Zins is not one of them. They said that Robert Zins was attending the church around that time but that there was "no connection" between him and the founding of the church.

Mr. Gwinn seeks to disparage my reputation by insinuating that I embellished my resume to include the “help in planting Country Bible Church” in Kauffman, Texas. In reality, Country Bible Church started out in Scurry Rosser, Texas. We were indeed on the ground floor in the early stages of this tiny little fellowship. In years later, and it is now almost 26 years, this group moved to Kauffman, Texas and began to flourish. We are delighted to hear of it. If anyone needs proof that we were on the ground floor please contact me directly. Those there now would have precious little if any recollection of us who were there in the beginning.

I exchanged letters with the seminary administration in the fall of 1999. They informed me that Robert Zins frequently contacts the seminary to complain of a variety of things. At that time, he was complaining about a "Leadership Conference" to be held at Dallas Seminary which was to (and did) include among its slate of speakers the former Secretary of Education William Bennett, scheduled to speak on the subject of leadership.

Mr. Gwinn is off base here again. It is certainly true that I objected as strongly as I could to the invitation to have William Bennett address the Seminary in honor of their anniversary. Mr. Bennett is a staunch Roman Catholic. What message was the seminary sending to missionaries in Mexico, S.America and Spain? It is untrue that I contact the seminary to complain of a “variety of things.”

Rob then criticizes the seminary for this positive remark about ECT. As I established earlier, Brother Rob becomes righteously indignant whenever it is suggested that there could be a single Catholic person who believes solely in Christ for their salvation. However, his energy would be better spent finding and witnessing to [once-born] Catholics instead of criticizing his alma mater. In light of the imminent return of Christ, Mr. Zins is wasting a lot of time.

Mr. Gwinn is welcome to his opinion that our ministry is a waste of time. Once again he wants to have it both ways. We cannot emphasize enough that 2 plus 2 equal 4 in any language. Mr. Gwinn thinks that there may be a single person who believes all the garbage of the Roman Catholic religion and the nefarious gospel of Rome while at the same time believing in the pure unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is absurd to believe that one can believe both.

We would urge the reader to read our section on Dallas Seminary in our book: On the Edge of Apostasy to see if we are right.

In addition to the fabrication about Kaufman, Texas, and the hypocrisy of touting himself a Dallas graduate when he is the greatest critic of the seminary, there is more.

In this accusation Mr. Gwinn has simply run out of things to say. By objecting to the inclusion of a Roman Catholic speaker at a seminary banquet and questioning the weak response of DTS over the ECT document, I have become in Mr. Gwinn’s mind “the greatest critic of the seminary.” Enough said. Mr. Gwinn’s accusation that I fabricated my involvement with Country Side Bible is itself a gross falsehood. Enough said here as well.

Two other questionable claims at his bio page relate to his relationship with Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas and another claim about church-planting in Proctor, Vermont. Let me quote for you how Rob Zins states this at his web site:

Upon graduation (from Dallas Seminary), he ministered as a teacher at Highland Park Presbyterian Church in Dallas. It was during this time that he heard the "New England cry" and moved to Proctor, Vermont to begin a church planting mission.

He claims to have been a "teacher" at this highly respected and large Presbyterian Church in Dallas. What does that mean? The use of the word "teacher" (I say) is intentionally vague, intended to make you think he was on the staff of the church or at least a Sunday school teacher. Come to find out, he was never on the church staff, and was not an "approved" teacher at all.

Mr. Gwinn should well know that I am aware of the difference of being on staff and being a teacher. This is precisely why I say “teacher” at Highland Park Presbyterian rather than a staff member. He then attributes sinister motives to my use of the word teacher. I am purported to “make one think I was on staff” at Highland Park Presbyterian. The fact of the matter is that I was a Sunday school teacher at Highland Park Presbyterian Church. I have no idea what it means to be “an approved” teacher. I was in contact with the staff and they were well aware that I was teaching a class. It is that simple.

So God calls him to Proctor, Vermont. Notice the carefully chosen words, "to begin" a church planting mission. Why didn't he say that he went to Proctor, Vermont and planted a church? That would be because he didn't plant a church. There is not a single church in Proctor which owes anything about its existence to Robert Zins. Proctor is a small town of 2,000 people which has three churches.

Mr. Gwinn continues his efforts to discredit CWRC by trying to discredit me. We did in fact move to Proctor, Vermont. Proctor is a small hamlet about 7 miles outside of Rutland, Vermont. It was in Rutland where we labored to plant an independent Bible church that began with a small group of families. My bio says we moved to Proctor, Vermont to begin a church planting mission. It does not say, “We move to Proctor, Vermont to plant a church in Proctor. Mr. Gwinn is once again showing his proclivity to let his anger at CWRC twist and distort his own research.

If it were the case that Brother Rob had tried to plant a church in Proctor but that it never took root, or something, I might accept his word for it. But to say that he went there "to begin a church planting mission" is to mislead or fabricate. It seems that within a few years, he gave up on Proctor's 2,000 residents and moved to nearby Rutland, thus abandoning his alleged calling to plant a church in Proctor. Mr. Zins forsook Proctor, leaving it without any conservative or reformed congregation. That might be okay, if he weren't continuing to announce himself as having been called to plant churches that he never managed to plant.

We have never claimed to be called to Proctor, Vermont to plant a church in Proctor, Vermont. Mr. Gwinn is now in ad hominem mode. He will continue to resort to distortion and name calling.

In fact, on page 230 of On the Edge of Apostasy, Zins lumps the Southern Baptists in with all the rest of the compromised Evangelicals, no different from the aforementioned American Baptists. According to Zins, they all "parade boldly down Main Street USA flying the colors of Romanism" (p.226). Other groups included in Mr. Zins' denunciation include Focus on the Family, Navigators, World Vision, Youth With A Mission, InterVarsity, Christian Research Institute, Luis Palau Evangelistic Association, and many more.

We welcome one and all to read our book: On the Edge of Apostasy to see if we have mis-represented anyone at any time. We stand by our research. It is fully footnoted and fully credible. It is now in second edition and second printing. We only hope that anyone with a small interest in the ecumenical movement would go to our web site and order the book. See for yourself

Therefore, associating with Catholics to accomplish God's purposes is acceptable (in my view) and Robert Zins is hypocritical to preach extreme separation from Catholics. He is hypocritical to accuse Evangelicals of being "ecumenists" (which he means in a derogatory sense) when Zins, himself, shares religious activities with Catholics.

Mr. Gwinn believes that public debating with Roman Catholic scholars and then shaking hands with them [a courtesy] is tantamount to hypocrisy since we denounce Rome so strongly. I can assure the reader that I do not “share religious activities with Roman Catholics.

Contrast Zins who takes Geisler & MacKenzie to the woodshed, declaring them to be fools on "the road to Rome" having "betrayed the Gospel of Christ." DeCourcy would be alarmed at Zins' rhetoric!

Mr. Gwinn thinks that we are hypocrites for scolding Geisler/MacKenzie while selling DeCourcy’s book denouncing the ECT. We will have to let the readers decide if we are indeed hypocritical. We may have some differences with DeCourcy about some things but we are on the same page with his denunciation of ECT. That is our point in carrying his book. Geisler/MacKenzie needs to be scolded. Their book is a tragic representation of all that is wrong with modern American ecumenism. We stand by our critique of them.

"Not only will you have to stand up against the Roman Catholic religion, you're going to have to stand up against all the major denominations on the Evangelical side as well. And they will forge a union, not only with Romanism, but also with the rest of the world's religions. And that's not going to be pretty for true Christians." R.M. Zins

Let me spell this out . . . . . Mr. Zins is not only talking about individuals like Billy Graham, Chuck Colson, and other named people as being apostate. Indeed, Brother Rob has declared ALL of Evangelicalism as apostate. If you think this is just my opinion, you need to read the above quote again. If you feel the need to actually hear it for yourself, please order the tape set from Rob Zins. As incredible as it may seem, that really is what he says!

We have reproduced the quote to which Mr. Gwinn refers when he says, “…you need to read the above quote again.” The Lutheran Accord should be our tip-off here. It was signed by the World Lutheran Federation. It takes those Lutheran bodies back to Rome by accepting Rome today. This coupled with the number of RC’s on the staff of evangelical organizations such as Campus Crusade for Christ and Messiah College to name just two, should be a warning that what I have been predicting is in fact coming to pass. We do not know what the word “evangelical” means today. Evidently to those “evangelicals” who signed ECT and The Gift of Salvation and Thy Word is Truth, just to name a few of the ecumenical documents signed since 1994, evangelicalism does not exclude Rome. Is this a problem? You bet.

At the end of the day, Mr. Gwinn implores evangelical churches to stay away from CWRC and the like of those who agree with us. He is welcome to his opinion. We shall let the reader decide. The Gospel is at stake. It is no small thing. Our reputation is important to us. We do not lie or distort or mis-lead. On the contrary, our straight forward approach has brought us much ridicule over the years. We shall continue to press on against the night. We realize there will be no end to the resistance to His glorious Gospel and those who know it and love it.

RMZ